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Women's space colonized

author: Samantha/FIASCO-USA
Oct 29, 2005 02:19

How women are being violated and mentally raped by patriachal colonizers and their male agents of sexual oppression!

I would find it very awkward in a women's only space with a man attending. Women share insights and intimate incidents in their own personal lives to relate with in such a space. A male presence would hinder, if not destroy the "feminine chemistry" of the space.

No matter how effectively a man may think he is fooling women, it is just plainly very simple: "women know women ... and can spot a fraud immediately." It would indeed effect what would be shared in the group and that could and I emphatically believe would negatively effect the growing and learning that comes from a women-only space. His very presence would be stealing something from the women; while he would only feeding himself on the time spent in our space for his own selfish needs and desires.

Entering a woman's bathroom....

If the transexual/transvestite/homosexual man was in the restroom what would he be thinking? Is he looking over the women to see who he desires to be most? Are his eye's filled with envy because he knows inside he will never truly be a real woman? Is he undressing the innocent women with his eyes and lusting after their bodies to be his? He is feeding off of the unsuspecting women and achieving his addictive emotional gratification by intentionally not honoring the sanctity of the sign which reads, "Women's Restroom." His main concern only can be to seek some kind of self-serving endorsement and exotic high by sitting on the stool, rather than standing up to the latrine to help him get his addictive itch satisfied. How very sick.

When a tranny-man enters a women's restroom he is lying to those of us in there. We perceive him as being female. He is stealing our feminine privacy. We believe the sign is clear and is there on the door so men will not enter. Only women are supposed to be entering into the women's restroom. He is most definitely violating our surroundings mentally and physically. He is male no matter what clothes, makeup, surgery, or pseudo name he wears. If we were standing before one mirror while he stood before the other mirror, we would know he is crossing a distinct social boundary; and clearly violating us with his deceiving manner of dress. More troubling would be his lustful observation of our privacy; observing us when we put on lipstick, perhaps brushing our hair or pull up our slips. I prefer for no strange man to watch us do any of these personal actions. His invasive presence has stolen a safe and trusting place for women to be.

He would make it uncomfortable for us to be in our own sexed restroom. Because of the transexuals in this ever-changing world, I find myself wondering more and more often, "Is that really a woman in the next stall?"

A man has no right to enter a woman's bathroom! If he truly identified with and cared and respected women in a restroom as much as he cared about himself he would not violate women in this way. His intrusion only reveals his gross narcissism and lust-filled heart.

No responsible mother or father would want their young or teenage daughter to use a restroom if they knew a man was in there. Whether parents did or did not know he was in there, he would be violating the innocence of the younger generation -- of budding women and their right to feminine privacy. Would the violation stop there? If he so carelessly violates their privacy by his willful disregard for the very intelligible sign on the door, will he then be empowered to do so in other ways? Or, are we chancing, even encouraging, further harm and intrusions to happen to all women of all ages by not enforcing common-sense standards as basic as "men and women's bathrooms?"

Our patriarchal, postmodern society seems only interested in not wanting to hurt the feelings of an emotionally-ill man wearing a dress in women's bathrooms.

I simply ask, "Whose feelings should really be taken into consideration?"

I would prefer and common sense would expect that my daughter and I could safely enter our sex-specific bathroom, and go there to accomplish what it is that women do while there, in strict privacy; never wondering about their privacy, or if there is a sex-crazed man in the next stall?


Samantha
Feminists Involved Against Sex Change Operations (FIASCO)

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Comments
yet another hate filled comment
Posted by: Barb at Oct 31, 2005 01:35

As it would appear, just another supremisist attitude, only this time propigated by a woman rather than a white male. The wording is the same but the labels have been changed. Also, I believe the word 'transsexual' is spelled as such, but then I'm not such a good speller either, just a woman with an opposing view. If these people, women, who are transsexual have to pee I don't have a problem sitting next to them, the restroom is not what defines me. LOL

what is a womam?
Posted by: aline at Oct 31, 2005 23:47

What is a woman? Is being born with XX cromossomes? is having a vagina? You don't have any idea about transexual experience. Open your mind and try to open a little bit your close mind. What do you know about patriarcal oppression? What do you know about being hated because you are with a wrong gender configuration. What do you know about suffer your hole life because you have to try to be someone that doesn mach what you feel abvout yourself. Imagine you as you are with the same feelings, the same as you are. Imagine you in a masculine body. Open your little mind.

Aline de Freitas
A feminist transexual woman!

Women's space colonized, REPLY
Posted by: Terry at Nov 01, 2005 01:12

I have not read such self-aggrandizing BS in a long time! We're only there to relieve ourselves the same as you are! We aren't asking for the deed. As far as Transexuals undressing you with their eyes, Fagedaboutit! Watching you put on lipstick? What about you watching me put on lipstick? You obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about! You don't know the first thing about Transexuals. We're not interested in your body or anything else about you. We just want to be able to use a ladies room with out being arrested or harrassed when we have to go. That's all. Not much to ask of a public accomodation when you think about it.
Terry.

hmm sounds like a transexual man in denial
Posted by: X-mass at Nov 01, 2005 03:16

I have met quite a few seperatist feminists over the years. What is strange is that on quite a few occasions I have met them a ten or so years later. When I first met them they were all about excluding me from women's space, ten years on they admit that they were at the time in denial about their own transexuality. That they had to exclude me, or else they would need to face their own insecurity with their gender, they were desperatly fighting to see themselves as women, desperatly trying to deny what they felt in their hearts, how jealouse they felt that I could transition and they couldn't.

Now maybe the person who wrote this is terrified for some other reason, but I have found in my life those who are most terrified of something are often the most terrified that ist true of them too.

That terror stands at teh root of homophobia, that terror stands at teh root of the racism that has teh last group in pulling up teh drawbridge so no one else may enter lest they bring their stack of cards down. It stands at the root of this transphobia.

all I can say to you is that if you are in denial , its ok I was terrified to. Being beaten into pretending that you a gender you are not is hugely traumatising, It can leave you with mental scars that last a lifetime, being tortured everyday into pretending to eb a woman can leave you willing to do anything anything to keep confirming you are a girl to the outside world lest they torture you again. I do understand I went through it too, when I was 5 i tried to repeatedly kill myself rather than have to live as a boy, and I can well believe going through puberty with all its expectations and fear of growing breasts was like when I couldn't work out why this thing was on my body and I wasnt like other girls. I do understand. Its safe , you don't have to be in denial anymore

best of luck
kate

Oh great, more hatred.
Posted by: Angry Third Wave Canadian Feminist at Nov 01, 2005 03:42

I didn't realize Indymedia published transphobic hate propaganda. Are we going to have to start reading homophobic and racist opinions, too? Maybe I'll switch to the right wing blogs for a dose of tolerance.

You're right about men occupying women's spaces. It's wrong and can create an unsafe space. But transsexual women are women, so what's the problem? Trust me, they're more afraid of non-trans women than we are of them. They're horrified about being verbally or physically abused, and that's exactly the kind of behaviour you're supporting with hate-filled screeds like this one.

Not every lesbian is checking you out in the washroom, either. Mostly people go into the washroom to, you know, relieve themselves, not to oppress the other occupants.

Get a grip, girl.

reply
Posted by: Jane at Nov 01, 2005 04:01

how ignorant the writer is that she obviously has no idea of the difference between a trassexual, a gay man or a transvestite. Male to Female transsexuals are women, they are born that way, they are just unlucky enough to be born wrong with the wrong genitals. Transsexuals go through long painful surgeries and endure 100s of hours of painful electrolysis, so that their bodies match their brains, they don't do all this just in order to use womens bathrooms. Transsexuals also suffer a huge ammount of discimination and bigotry from sick minded inviduals such as the writer of this piece of twaddle.

i'm sorry to break this to you
Posted by: Sabrina Qedesha at Nov 01, 2005 05:09

I'm sorry to break this to you, but it's not all about you.

Looks like satire to me
Posted by: Edeyn Blackeney at Nov 01, 2005 05:27

Especially with an organizational abbreviation as obviously fake as "FIASCO"

Reading this and it's super-stereotypical attitudes of one branch of nearly violent opinions usually expressed as "Womyn for Womyn born Womyn" it seems extremely obvious that it's not real. It was written to make a point about the type of person that would write this tripe for real -- at least, in my opinion it appears that way. Annually, in Michigan, there is a music festival "for womyn only" in which they will bodily throw out any they discover as "a spy for the patriarchal society" in other words, transsexual women get tossed out and excluded because these gals are somehow convinced that all Male-to-Female transsexuals are men who have gone to the extreme of changing their sex just so they can spy on "real womyn" at the festival. Here's a newsflash... that's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard in my life!

Now, this representative of "FIASCO" seems to me to be contrived in an effort to gauge the response this kind of post would generate. I am, in fact, about 90% sure that it's a piece of agitative satire, and as such... meant to be laughed at, not reacted to as though it were serious.

Any who care to continue this line of conversation, feel free to contact me by email.

The Straw Man logical fallacy
Posted by: Changing_Seasons at Nov 01, 2005 06:44

Re: the questions in the paragraphs following "Entering a woman's bathroom.... "

A lesson in the Straw Man logical fallacy:

Who would you rather knock over - the Strong Man or the Straw Man?

Straw man is easy to remember because of the picture it makes you think of. Remember, a straw man is easier to knock over than a real man. Likewise, a phony argument that in some ways resembles an actual argument is easier to knock down than the real argument. Whenever someone claims to be presenting their opposition's argument, be very careful. They may be presenting it in such a way that it appears to be very silly.

Definition:

The author attacks an argument which is different from, and usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument.

Examples:

(i) People who opposed the Charlottetown Accord probably just wanted Quebec to separate. But we want Quebec to stay in Canada.

(ii) We should have conscription. People don't want to enter the military because they find it an inconvenience. But they should realize that there are more important things than convenience.

Proof:

Show that the opposition's argument has been misrepresented by showing that the opposition has a stronger argument. Describe the stronger argument.

---

In this case, the author wrote up her suppositions of what she believes are the motivations why transsexual people use the rest rooms of their target sex, and declared that these motivations of these "transexual/transvestite/homosexual [men]" as "sick." The suppositions are the arguments of "The Straw Man."

The proofs of stronger arguments are found in the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care and the DSM-IV, which describe transsexual people in terms of medical condition -- outlining symptoms and appropriate treatments for transsexual people. Another proof is found in the article "Gender Blender; Intersexual? Transsexual? Male, female aren't so easy to define" ( http://www.bodieslikeours.org/forums/showthread.php?t=760) by Eric Vilain (Chief of Medical Genetics at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA), in which Dr. Vilain is quoted as saying "Sex should be easily definable, but it's not. Our gender identity — our profound sense of being male or female — is independent from our anatomy."

In other words, the author of "Women's space colonized" had suppositions that aren't the arguments of real transgender people -- they're just opinions framed in a manner to try and make transsexual people look as sick and perverted as she perceives them to be. Well, facts are stubborn things. If this author wishes to express her prejudices regarding transgender people persuasively, she probably shouldn't use logical fallacies to make her point. As Edward R. Murrow said, "A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices."

I can only hope this article is poor satire or a poor joke.

*sigh*
Posted by: Shannon at Nov 01, 2005 07:45

You want to know something Samantha? ... never mind, you wouldn't listen ...

To everyone else. Be Loud. Be Proud.

How soon some forget.
Posted by: Arlene Starr at Nov 01, 2005 08:31

I remember a time Samantha dear when you would have not been given consideration to publish this rubbish simply because you are female. I suggest you open your mind and close the stall door when you are in the women’s restroom.

Response from a transsexual.
Posted by: Kimberly Wilson at Nov 01, 2005 08:57

First of all, if this article is satirical in nature, I wish it had been clearly labeled as such. As a pre-op transsexual woman, the subject of restroom use is an important one. Since I still have my male “bits” under the law in most states of the union (USA) I am designated as male. However, since I am presenting as female, using male facilities can be a very dangerous thing to do. Restrooms tend to be confined spaces and the risk of physical attacks from men who are not accepting is very real. Without gender neutral restrooms, when I am out in public I have a choice to make, use the women’s restroom or the men’s. The choice is very easy, as using the men’s room will place me in a dangerous situation.

Samantha, let me assure you that I go into the women’s restroom because I need to relieve myself, and to fix my makeup. I go for the same reasons that you go. I do not go to gawk at you, or to invade your space. Actually, it is my space too.

Kimberly Wilson.

Frustrating to read
Posted by: Donna at Nov 01, 2005 09:48

First, I have NEVER entered a restroom of EITHER gender to gawk, ogle or seek sexual or emotional thrills. I use a restroom just as any other person does, take care of "business" and, perhaps, freshen up a tad. In additionm, just WHERE are these "inner secrets" type facilities??? I've never encountered one...everyone else was "occupied" as was I.

I also thoroughly object to the notion that I, or any other transsexual - male to female or female to male - are a threat to children. I transitioned at a high school. The school thought it wise to put an occupied/vacant lock on the front door of the rest rooms (yes, they did it for the boys, too!) because of my presence - which was then pre-op. To avoid discrimination statutes everyone was told they could use the locks for their own sense of "safety" or "privacy", though no one (including myself) was required to use the lock. Know what happened. The kids never used the lock - and they all knew about me. The boys would sometimes use their lock to go play dice games, though. It was the adults at my agency that used the lock...but NOT because of me, they didn't feel comfortable being around the students! Go figure. I think it was best summed up by one student. A new student to my facility, a sophomore male, had been told about me. He questioned a female student with "well, which restroom does she use?". The female student's response was an emphatic and rather indignant.."The GIRL'S Room.....DUUUUUUUUH!".

My advise Samantha is to stop looking for the boogey-person where one doesn't exist. If I'd been inclined to assault someone in a restroom, I wouldn't have needed women's clothes to do so. I spent 20 years at a high school - and no time, before or after my transition, was ANY student ever in any type of jeopardy in my presence.

Donna

I think you just don't get it.
Posted by: Leandra at Nov 01, 2005 09:56

Dear Samantha:

You ask,
> "Whose feelings should really be taken into consideration?"
I say, everyone's. Not just yours. I transitioned six years ago "in place," with all of my co-workers' knowledge. The women conducted a town hall meeting and agreed to permit me to use three of the four womens' rooms in our building, reserving the fourth for the *very few* who shared the discomfort you describe. After a year, they held a follow up meeting and decided to lift even that restriction.

You are correct, we definitely do engage in so-called "girl talk" that we do not when men are present. Many of my female co-workers include me in their confidence. What you just don't seem to get but which the women I work with now understand is that I'm *not* just a man in drag, rather I'm an otherwise ordinary woman who happened to have the poor fortune to be born with physically male charactersistics. Just pause to ask yourself how you would feel if you woke up tomorrow with a days growth of beard, hairy legs, a flat chest, and other attributes I won't mention. Would that make you feel (or think) like a man? I doubt it. You might ponder what it would be like having to live with such a disconnect between internal identification and external appearances day after day, year after year, and then reconsider the opinions you expressed in your essay.

Please consider dear, our feelings count, too.

Sincerely,

-- Leandra

paranoia-get something worthwhile to do
Posted by: xander at Nov 01, 2005 10:48

jesus f***king christ woman what a bigoted view. i wouldn't give a damn if mens toilets were frequented by transexual women, women, gay men, gay women, bisexual people, or anyone for that matter. just because some man dressed as a lady used a public convienience whilst you were occupying it it doesnt mean they are infringing on your personal space. for starters, you could try. for once,---GIVING PEOPLE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. just because someone with a cock wears a skirt it doesn't mean he is undressing you with his eyes, idolising or envious of you. don't flatter yourself. i have met transsexuals who were more lady-like and more gracious than a good number of born women i have met.
i'm glad a thousand times over i'm not your husband.
i'm glad a thousand times over i dont live near you.

stop being so freakin paranoid and suspicious of everyone and the world might seem a bit better. view the world with a negative view and of course its going to be crap.

and lastly, let people be what they want to be. just because you don't agree with their tastes, it doesn't make them evil or wicked.

stop believing what you read and see in the media. all information is second-hand anyway.

as a transsexuall man
Posted by: otoko at Nov 01, 2005 11:50

i have to say that there are some trans men (female to male) that dont understand thier situation yet. after i graduated from highschool i had a huge problem even using the bathrooms at all so i had to hold it the entire day because of this. i had no idea what i was going through and i suffered for it just to sneak in to the bathrooms to pee. there might be other guys who dont know about thier situation yet like i did. its like the constant thoughts in the head of..
#1 we have female bottom parts and were raised as women
#2 yet we live as male
#3 what bathrooms do we use if we dont understand what we are?
#4 we have the paranoia of a man also spying into the stall if we use that male bathroom too because of the way we were raised as female.

i dont have this problem anymore because a gay guy helped me out by showing me things on using the male restroom. and he told me that they wont look because of the homophobia in the male culture.

but for those who dont know and are questioning what they are and dont understand .. its pretty miserable. and bad for the health.

there are things out there that some of us dont know about.

it has nothing to do with pervertedness...
it has something to do with just going peee !!

Paranoid Delusion or Just Pure Bigot?
Posted by: Nikki, UK at Nov 01, 2005 12:28

I have often heard of feminist lesbian separatists espousing such clap trap citing that there is no distiction between a gender congruent straight man on one hand and a postop transsexual woman or even an AIS woman on the other, with all stops in between.

If one first of all separates the gay male from the proceedings because he is the most incongruous to support this feeble argument. Why ever would a guy who dresses as a man and fancies men ever give you one look?

As a post operative transsexual woman of some years, whenver I have interacted with gay men, the response is always the same, even if they do look like Will of Will and Grace - sorry hun, you are a woman.

So to transvestites. I do not know of many places where TVs dominate a toilet except in gay friendly places. I agree at times one takes one life in one's hands in a toilet filled with trannies, but only in the fight for the mirror! Hardly a crime. Most people are polite and civil and are quiet and courteous.

Of all the groups you mentioned, there is a small vocal minority who strictly go to gay venues who are more sexually open but they tend to be more interested in other trannies and even transsexual women are considered out of bounds to them, so please do not worry.

But then who said you have the looks and body of Jamie Lee Curtis? If you have, then you are at greatest risk of being agressively come-on-to by predatory butch lesbians. Now I do not know about you, but a Stone Dyke with a 10ins phallus strapped in their pants and pumped with steroids is far more threatening !

Of course, the worst offence is commited by natal females pestering trans people for highly personal information or worse still, harassing them with predjudice and ill informed views such as yours.

And so to transsexual women. We are no different to you, we piss, we poop, we wash our hands and we get out of there just like you. Most ts women so much abhor their donor material if pre-op that they avoid even looking at it, never mind even thinking of using it, even if their GD and hormone induced low libido were to suddenly lift. And post op we have what is called a vagina like you. 60% of us prefer males anyhow, so what's the big deal.

Or are you the female equivalent of the homo-phobic homosexual male who sordidly lingers in a loo to pick up another person of the same gender?

It is called Cottaging in the UK and is an exclusively male domain on this side of the Atlantic, but who knows what in Seattle. Cottages only attract "straight" men wanting a dirty cheap thrill with another like minded fellow and no self respecting gay man would be seen in a men's toilet for crude piss-stained sex, becuase he doesnt need to. It is much more likely that TVs and gay men wanting sex would frequent a male toilet since they would have a semi-legitimate reason to use those facilities.

In the UK men get arrested for sexual indiscretion in MALE toilets and NOT female ones, so please get real. Men are fed on testosterone unlike transsexual woman for whom testo is metaphorically if not literally a poison.

And neither do transsexual women want to use a ladies toilet for a pick up, because all you get is the person who cannot stand up to be counted as a lesbian in the mainstream world.

Why one thinks that transsexual women would want to make a pass at you in a toilet beggars belief. You need counselling to help you overcome your paranoia and quit being such a bigot.

Nikki, UK

Oh and by your definition, Jamie Lee Curtis, who is commonly believed to be AIS and therefore an XY female would likewise be excluded from your narrow definition.

Angry, hate filled comments, god bless you
Posted by: Staci at Nov 01, 2005 18:39

So, as I read this article, I was filled with such joy. I couldn't believe that someone would be so enlightened about this topic.

As we put to rest Rosa Parks, the one woman in all the black community who decided to stand up for something she believed, we can finally put civil rights to bed. Lets start by, putting those people back in the cotton fields.

We can then put us women back into the home and take away out right to vote. We can become the property of our husbands. Oh, and not only that we can arrange everyones marriage. Life was so much more civilized then. The divorce rate was low and children always grew up with a mother and a father in the home. What a utopian world it was 100 years ago.

Do you see how stupid that all sounds. As a trans-woman I am no less a woman than you, dear author. It is this very attitude that I had to fight within myself for almost 20 years before I could become whole in my understanding of myself, and dammit I earned my right to be a woman, just as much as you have. As women we are still persecuted for being who we are and it is obvious that becasue you have not accepted the power that you already have, to feel stronger you have to persecute someone else to feel it.

Isn't the point of feminism to reclaim the power, and I mean the inner power to be strong within oneself and the outer power to change what is wrong with our world. These attitudes espoused here are not the way to fight for change. Inclusion of all is.

I can tell you that when I go into the bathromm my only goal is to pee and be done. Anyone, man or woman, doing the things that you describe is not a civilised human. ther are protocols to be observed, and if your head were not up your #$#%^^ so far you would know this.

Ae you Kidding?
Posted by: ASH at Nov 01, 2005 19:54

I could not help but laugh when I read this. I mean, I have no problem with lesbians, GG or TG, but a majority of M2F TS are straight, meaning that we are women attracted to men. I have no interest whatsoever in some plain, drab, pseudo-intellectual radical nutcase of a woman I might see in the restroom. I mean get real, most men don't want to watch you put on lipstick, much less TS women. I also think it is obvious that even a lesbian TG woman is not going to have the kind of male sex drive or behavior this person is worried about.

wow. i'm so glad to hear how traumatizing...
Posted by: trin at Nov 01, 2005 20:13

...it is to go into the bathroom, see someone you suspect of not being quite like you, and filling your mind with crazy suppositions about that person's "hidden agenda" revealed by her brazen... umm... going to the restroom.

Don't forget the lavender menace!
Posted by: badgerbag at Nov 01, 2005 22:37

It's the lavender menace you really have to worry about. I find myself worrying all the time in public restrooms: Is that woman next to me thinking lustful, dirty thoughts about the private womanly sound of my pissing and farting, a sound that should be for normal, natural, non-lesbian women only? Ones who won't objectify us normal women.

Aaaaagh, lesbians! Mentally ill wymmin who nonconsensually think about other women, maybe; maybe even me! You can't see into their brains. They might be thinking something lesbonic! Lesbians! Everywhere! Lusting and ogling. In our bathrooms! Eeeeeeeeek!

Dear goddess... save us all from lesbians in the bathrooms.
Not to mention in the locker rooms.
And on trains and beaches and stuff.
And in restaurants. And in public parks where they might be --- with lustful intent -- watching me lick the creamy filling out of an ice cream sandwich.

Wha?
Posted by: bumponalog at Nov 01, 2005 22:54

You MUST be kidding!

Sorry, hon
Posted by: another cunt at Nov 02, 2005 08:41

Some man told you to say that, didn't he?

Oh Lord
Posted by: A at Nov 02, 2005 09:26

I'm not sure why you chose to rail on just MTFs here. Any MTF is really just trying to get in, do her business, and get out without being harassed by assholes such as yourself. As an FTM I've yet to see any similar perspective on FTMs from even the most close-minded of men...they don't really care who's in their safe space because after all, it's just a bathroom and you might want to try thinking of it that way. It would be interesting to see who you would side with if a bio male were to rail on an FTM in the bathroom. Unfortuantely, I'm guessing you'd side with the bio male - based on what you have to say here, you have a problem with anyone claiming the name "female" without the proper credentials, and I'm sure you have jsut as big a problem with someone who wishes to discard the term in favor of something they find better suits them.

Go find some real problems and occupy yourself with them.

real problems with wrong solutions
Posted by: Samantha of FIASCO-USA at Nov 02, 2005 10:39

...I'm in fact appalled by this slew of hostile responses. What I was asking is whether this society is so patriarchal that one man's mental delusion takes precedence over the safety of multiple women. If so, if 1 man > many women, then we women don't count as much in America. So much for equality.

If these transgender/transexual individuals are so committed to equality and freedom and against discrimination, please stop piggy-backing on OUR struggles and appropriating OUR identity and act like they are PROUD truly of who they ARE, instead of fooling us into thinking they are who they AREN'T. In some of the less patriarchal cultures they are called eunuchs, hijras, catooeys, bardaches, etc., and are considered men-who-are-separate-from-men-but-not-women. And they are respected and occupy distinct positions in society.

"Women" are defined by their XX chromosomes, their capacity to bear child, their menstrual cycles, their common past experience under oppression, and many many other factors. But the transies think they can pay surgeons and buy a fake vagina and a pair of fake silicone boobs and that'll make them women. This flies in all women's faces as a pure patriarchal objectified INSULT. That is no better than men ogling their pervy eyes at the Playboy magazine.

Scientific truth about transexuality: There are only two kinds of transexuals -- A. homosexuals who are attracted to genuinely masculine straight males. B. homosexuals who are attracted to their own bodies in an autohomoerotic way. Recent studies have proven this.

As to restroom topic. In a more ENLIGHTENED society, these transies are not going to be assaulted for using the correct restroom because men will not be that homophobic anymore. The society will accept transies as effeminate men, and so they won't have to pretend like they're women or be mutilated to feel safe.

For the time being. Why not have a separate gay restroom. Require building codes to have three restrooms, men, women, gay. The gay restroom will be for transies and drag queens and nelly boys so the quarterbacks and homophobes won't beat them up to death every time.

The Unitarian-Universalist Church now is implementing this and UUs are the most progressive of all churches! Look at the glory of the new gay restroom sign!  http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/?aid=912 I'm glad I found this on Google Image search. UUs are very pro-feminist and they have a rational mind.

For the rest of the world outside UU churches. Maybe transies need to have a specially coded names and wear a badge all the time so we real women would stay out of OUR restroom when transies walk in.

*sigh*
Posted by: pidgeon at Nov 02, 2005 12:48

"If these transgender/transexual individuals are so committed to equality and freedom and against discrimination, please stop piggy-backing on OUR struggles and appropriating OUR identity and act like they are PROUD truly of who they ARE.."

I'm sorry. I must have missed the copyright notification that declared you the owner of the struggle. I guess I've got to pay royalties or something now!

You might do yourself a favor and ask why your "article" (which to me is the same old transphobic drivel I've seen espoused from so called feminists who haven't evolved past Janice Raymond and 1979) has gotten such hostile responses. Perhaps it's because this could literally be posted verbatiam on one of the Focus on the Family websites and would not seem the least bit out of place?

As for scientific "truth" about transsexuality, you're just spouting the same old non-substantiated crapola that has LONG been discredited not only by researchers but also by the transcommunity itself. The "recent studies" you claim prove this, are my guess based on J. Michael Bailey's book which Dr. Eli Coleman, head of the scientific body in charge of the medical standards of care for transfolks (HBIGDA) called at the annual meeting of HBIDGA "bad science". The studies, which you never do actually cite, were performed by a small group of researchers who have been long discredited (to the point of one of them getting tossed from his department head of psych at northwestern).

As for the bathroom signs, you seem to misunderstand the reason for them. They're not there to protect you from those skery transpeople. They're there to protect them from folks like you.

Now if you'll excuse me, I gotta go pee.

got fascism?
Posted by: annoyed transwoman at Nov 02, 2005 13:33

"Maybe transies need to have a specially coded names and wear a badge all the time so we real women would stay out of OUR restroom when transies walk in."

Wow.... What a *great* concept! I could swear I saw a similar concept in an old newsreel from the 30s. I didn't quite understand what they were saying on the newsreel though, as it was in *GERMAN*.

Hey, maybe we can also do that with gay folks! Yeah, maybe a little pink triangle or something, sewed onto their clothes so when straight folks go pee they can know if any homosexuals are in the crapper. Hell, why stop there? We can do it with jews, communists, anarchists... anyone we want!

Yes, my suggestion was sarcsm. Unfortunately, I'm fairly certain your suggestion isn't.

Oh, for crying out loud.
Posted by: River at Nov 02, 2005 16:46

I am a woman (born such, with XX chromosomes and menses), a feminist, and I have NEVER felt threatened by knowing that a transwoman is using the women's restroom at the same time I am.

Transwomen are women. They may not have the XX chromosome pair, but they are *women*, not men. They live as women. They have the same safety issues we born women do. They are not there to ogle women, to threaten women, to harm women, any more than lesbian women are there to do so.

Transwomen are born women in male bodies. They have XY chromosome pairs, but female brains. (The difference has actually been borne out in recent scientific research.) They are not men.

Your bigotry is hardly representative of feminist attitudes in the Seattle area. I have friends who are FTM, friends who are MTF, friends who are intersex, friends who are gay, lesbian, straight, bi, you name it. I strongly support women's rights, but I include all women in that support, not just those who were born into fully female bodies.

It's interesting. Most of the opinions I've seen before this that postulate that the greatest defining characteristic of women is our ability to bear children have been those of rightwing nutcase patriarchal men, who want to use that as an excuse to make us timid little domestic slaves and second-class (or worse) citizens in general.

women like you
Posted by: Sarah at Nov 02, 2005 19:58

Thanks, I will avoid your hate as I do every time I need to pee... By passing as a man, and pissing in the men's bathroom. I have better things to do with my time than to scare you with my womanly masculinity.

Sarah... born with a cunt.

Oh Sarah, Sarah... why would you?
Posted by: True Feminist Agitator! at Nov 02, 2005 21:41

Oh Sarah, why would you sell out yourself? Can't you be proud of your womanhood? Yes, you too, those women who sell out the lesbian community and try to become men so you can turn your female backs on us and start oppressing us like pigs.

Oh, this afternoon I happened to have seen a tall black tranie man in *our* restroom at a mall in certain western Washington suburban town. Knowing at least "real" tranies can have their "sex" changed on their license I demanded to see his drivers license. His Idaho driving license says he's male and his name is "Tyler" so I immediately called the security guard but alas the Mr. Security Guard told me it's in fact "illegal" to discriminate against him even though he's the one possibly committing a crime (trespassing, or maybe public indecency). So Tyler goes scot-free and I get lectured on for being paranoid. But he's a man and his Idaho drivers license proves it.

We the women face and experience oppression under the hands of males daily from the day we were born and declared "It's a girl!" Men, on the other hand, enjoy privileges from the day they were born. Coming from that place of privilege it is *impossible* for men to even remotely approximate the experience women have had. It doesn't matter if his "brain" is "female." He was raised boy and received all the privileges. In fact most men who change sex had previously functioned well and normally as businessmen, husbands, athletes, soldiers and fathers. If his brain really is female he could not have spent 40 or 50 years of his life enjoying the male privilege and success. He would have killed himself as soon as he hit puberty instead (which according to Mr. Charles Darwin, is called "natural selection, survival of the fittest"). But alas, Mr. Tyler probably was a decorated U.S. Marine and former college quarterback and high school homecoming king and Eagle Scout, just like almost all the tranies I have met. It's such a fake.

Someone thinks I'm Focus on the Family. You know, there was a time when everyone both liberals and conservatives could agree on the basic, fundamental principles about this world. One of which is that men and women are different.

Karen.

Not spotted, not frauds
Posted by: also a real women at Nov 02, 2005 22:10

The assertion that natal women can and do spot
non-natal women immediately (termed 'spotting a fraud') just is not accurate, either in my experience or the experience of so many other trans women I know.

So, I must conclude that, if the assertion about spotting frauds really is true, then, hey, we are not frauds. Which is what we've been trying to make people aware of for a very long time.

Must be nice to be a gender cop.
Posted by: pidgeon at Nov 03, 2005 00:44

"He was raised boy and received all the privileges."

I'd say that you've only met a certain subset of the transsexual population. Since I can assure you that I know VASTLY more transpeople than you do (being one myself) I would say that a good chunk of them functioned at a bare minimum in their birth gender. For quite a number of us the ability to hide our trans-ness during childhood is just not an option. Some are able to pull it off, I'm sure, but not all.

Let's see... the privledges I received growing up.... ostracization from familial relationships and peer groups. physical and emotional abuse from both students and teachers, no sense of role models, community, future, massive depression, multiple suicide attempts and best of all... no place to turn for help.

Wow, the privledges of growning up trans! Sounds like a lot of fun, huh? And even better, I get to grow up to have to deal with a medical establishment that doesn't care a bit about me, cops that systematically brutalize the crap out of trans folks (as seen in the recent Amnesty report) and maybe, if I'm *REALLLY* lucky, I'll get clocked in a mall restroom by some no account busybody who calls mall security to do an ID check while I'm taking a leak. WOW! With all those privledges why the hell aren't transfolks running the world?!?!

"If his brain really is female he could not have spent 40 or 50 years of his life enjoying the male privilege and success."

I'll remember that the next time someone comes out as LGB at 40 or 50.. "Come on! If you were *REALLY* gay you would have come out at like 4 or something!"

"He would have killed himself as soon as he hit puberty"

Many of us do. Those of us who don't either find ways to cope, to hide or to dull the pain. But, since you really don't seem to give a shit about trans lives I'm sure you're just absolutely giddy over the thought of lots of dead trans folks.

BTW, nice pulling of the "scary black tranny" card. It's nice to know that you don't just save your venom for transfolks. Equal opportunity bigot, huh?

P.S. Transfolks are unable to get the gender on their ID changed in Idaho, regardless of surgical status, genius. But since you know alllll about us, you must have known that, right?

This is a joke
Posted by: mosquito at Nov 03, 2005 03:04

I don't know how many more times we are going to have to listen to this idiotic argument, based as it is on what is clearly deep-seated transphobia. This is actually one of the more pathetic examples, in that it suggests that maintenance of "feminine privacy", and "feminine chemistry", and other similarly nebulous concepts espoused by some misguided feminists are assigned a higher priority than relief of basic bodily functions.

Nothing in this post even remotely describes my life, my motivations, or my experience. I would say chances are excellent that you don't personally know any transpeople, and have somehow gotten caught-up in the Raymond-esque writings that blame transpeople for all sorts of transgressions on women for which they are unable to provide a shred of evidence. (Evidently they have not yet devised a "male-energy" measurement apparatus, so that they could detect and hunt down all the trannies who – as everyone knows- are operating as the secret agents of the male patriarchy - ssssshhh)

You also say:
"His [sic] main concern only can be to seek some kind of self-serving endorsement and exotic high by sitting on the stool, rather than standing up to the latrine to help him get his addictive itch satisfied. How very sick."

Really? Is that the *only* reason? Most humans I know go to the bathroom to empty their bladder and large intestines, but leave it the transphobes to deduce the *real* reason transwomen go the bathroom. Give me a fucking break! If anyone around here is sick, it is the person suggesting that transpeople should commit suicide to fit her warped idea of evolution by natural selection. And, for the record, I sit down for the same reason that you do - because I have to!

Lastly, I fail to comprehend how policing the bathrooms really advances the cause of feminism. If the problem is that males hold too much power, then attacking those who espouse the causes of women (which almost all MTFs do) is to weaken the cause you claim to be fighting for. If, on the other hand, you are simply transphobic, but are in denial of your transphobia - having rationalized it using outdated writings and a very narrow consideration of the real evidence - then your post makes much more sense. But I think you should be more honest and own your transphobia, rather than projecting your prejudice on an already hyper-marginalized population.

From the Mouth of a Donkey
Posted by: Kirsty at Nov 03, 2005 07:20

The following article was written by none other than (Mr.) Margaret D. O'Hartigan, in defence of womyn's rights to a safe space. He wrote this after a rape shelter in Vancouver was sued by a she-male who tried to volunteer (how does he know what it feels like to be raped, one must ask?).
 http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/issues/postmod.html

The effort has already had some success. As of June 16 of last year, Bradley-Angle House -- Portland's primary resource for battered women adopted a "Transgendered/Transsexual Policy" which extended services "to all individuals who identify as women regardless of their participation in a medically based transition." Despite the fact that the Portland area has only 85 to 95 beds available at any one time for women and children escaping abusive men, a man can now avail himself or shelter services based on nothing more substantial than his self-identification as a woman. By extending services to individuals regardless of "participation in a medically based transition" -- and by opening admittance to "transgendered" individuals Bradley-Angle House has signaled its willingness to accept not only pre- and post-operative transsexuals but drag queens, cross-dressers and even married men who wear women's clothing.

Once again, the postmodernist supposition that sex is nothing more than a social construct trumps the very real oppression of women.

The founder and head of the Survivor Project is [Mr.] D. Courvant a 30-year-old, pre-operative male-to-female transsexual who claims that as a man he was the victim of domestic violence at the hands of a woman he lived with in a sexual relationship. "She used fists, books, paintings, knives, anything handy to hurt me, " Courvant asserts. It was due to Courvant's efforts that Bradley-Angle House opened its doors to men.

A self-described "author, grassroots activist trans woman and survivor", Courvant laments domestic violence shelters which "gender purify". As Courvant's introduction to the Survivor Project's 1997 "Gender, Violence, and Resource Access Survey" states: "Though even heterosexual men have attended support groups for survivors of adult domestic violence, the gender specificity of helping agencies available typically leaves anyone who does not fit stereotypical gender or body types without access to resources."

But rather than establishing services to meet the needs of what the Survivor Project calls "sex- or gendervariant" people, Courvant seeks to co-opt existing women's shelters to the deconstructionist cause, and claims to have provided training to staff and volunteers of shelters from Corvallis, [Oregon] to Bellingham, [Washington]". Towards that end, last summer Courvant presented a paper at the biannual conference of the National Coalition Against Sexual and Domestic Violence.

LCP's role in all of this provides Courvant legitimacy as well as assistance in throwing open the doors of battered women's shelters to men. For example, in a recent letter to the editor of Portland's queer newspaper Just Out, LCP board member M.H.W. Lee castigated the publication for allegedly slighting the opinions of Courvant, whom Lee described as "a very important member of the trans community." And at the Portland observance of International Women's Day this year, LCP shared a table with Courvant, whose flyers promoting the Survivor Project solicited "donations and monthly Pledges"....

One of the most telling aspects of the [Mr. D. Courvant's] Survivor Project's campaign to "make battered women's shelters accessible to men is the fact that it is women who are consistently subjected to these solicitations. Gai Pied -- Portland's gay men's bookstore -- doesn't provide a collection site for CDs, and it doesn't have flyers promoting the Project's fund-raising. Women are expected to bear the financial burden alone because postmodernism 's facile reinforcement of the dominant male paradigm invariably comes at the expense of women; the elimination of sexual distinction -- like the elimination of affirmative action -only serves to reinforce the status quo, and the status quo favors white men.

Oregonians can't collect unemployment insurance if they quit their jobs to escape abusers who know where they work, yet LCP's Sameh isn't advocating for monthly pledges to provide women in imminent danger the sort of "economic safety net" which she seeks for Courvant. And while the injuries and deaths which women experience at the hands of men are certainly damaging to their health, LCP's Sameh focuses her efforts upon Courvant's well-being.





Mr. O'Hartigan is a man.
Posted by: Kirsty at Nov 03, 2005 07:31

For the record, Mr. M. D. O'Hartigan is a man. He was one of those very vocal leaders of the transexual community in Oregon who used to write lots of letters to newspapers and appeared on Lars Larson radio show as a guest expert on transexualism.

To the Canadian who said Canada has no bigotry: Real feminism isn't bigotry. BC Rape Shelter has a common sense when ensuring the shelter's and its clients' safety by allowing no men. If that's bigotry or hatred, then Canada is worse off than the USA, Bradley-Angle is American.

Disengenious debate tactics....
Posted by: pidgeon at Nov 03, 2005 12:49

Argument tactic #182

When you are losing a debate to a group of minorities who all insist you are wrong, don't worry! Dig up an opinion from one of "them", twist it to fit your needs, do some editing, and then claim *VICTORY*!

First, Margaret is one person who, maybe, if you twisted what she was actually writing about around, you could make it support your position. The article written was in fact, about one very specific issue and I would bet you a nickle that she would be none too pleased to see it being used in this manner.

Second, even if she thought you were right (which I *reallllly* doubt she does), so what? It would be like holding up Alan Keyes as representative of the black community and saying "See, this *ONE* obscure member of your community insists I'm right, so the hundreds of you that say I'm wrong are just delusional!"

Third, you edited the article. She never used "Mr." in the entire thing. You did that just to be mean spirited.

Fourth, and "for the record" I'm almost 100% certain she doesn't identify as a Mr. You tossed that in there as yet another bit of nastiness and transphobia.

And I know why you're doing this. Cause you and I and every other transperson out there know one undeniable fact. You and the few Raymond-esque feminists still clutching to the last vestiges of transphobia in the women's community are losing that battle and we're winning. We've been winning for years now. You have no support on this issue. It's as simple as that.

So, Kristi et. al, I warn you, not as an adversary, but as a comrade in struggle. Get right on this issue or your legacy will not be one of remembering the positive things done to advance the cause of women everywhere. People will remember folks like you in the same light that they remember the "Lavender" purges of NOW who, ironically, have not only become wonderful supporters of lesbian rights but are among the many women's organizations that support transwomen.

Folks won't remember the good you and your ilk have done. All they'll remember is the transphobia you're advancing. Is that what you want to be remembered as? A hate filled monster who spent their days picking on a group of folks who have so little as it is? That you wouldn't even do them the courtesy of respecting their gender?

If so, Kafka was right. There is hope... but not for us and certainly not for you.

obviously a fiasco
Posted by: virginia west at Nov 03, 2005 15:14

FIASCO pretty much sums it up--whoever wrote this, and is involved with this group is a fucking fiasco. my working class queer ass says-fuck you--i don't have time to process about this.

Jamie Lee Curtis urban legend
Posted by: Karen at Nov 03, 2005 16:54

 http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.htm

She's too pretty to be poisoned by the defective "Y" chromosomes. On the other hand, I can easily tell who the fakes are. Cos they are monstrous, disgusting and looking unrealistic.

If any transie organisation is looking for a slogan or a nym here's one:-
"Freaks: Disgusting the World One Person at a Time."

Here's Karen's transie-spotting manual. Use caution, do not attempt to apprehend as they are men with former military and athletic backgrounds and physically stronger than average women.

One! This can't be any simpler. Go up to him and ask straight forward, "Are YOU a MAN or a WOMAN?" If he looks nervous or confused and cannot snap an answer within a second, he's a man.

Two! Ask questions only women know, something about sexual health or menstruation. He does not know an answer.

Three! For someone who may be too shy to do 1 or 2 -- ask him if he can spare an extra tampon or a pad. He won't have one if he's fake!

Four! Observe his body shape. Usually in a real female the sizes of her breasts and her hip are proportional in the traditional feminine aesthetic. If you see someone with a small hip and big breasts, you can be 80% sure he's a she-male.

Five! Do a throat check. It really doesn't matter if he has a big adams apple or not. The point here is the angle in which the bone protrudes out of his throat. Measure it in degrees if necessary; if less than 150 degrees he's male (an average male's 90 degrees or less).

Six! Hand test. Measure the length of his ring finger and index finger. If his index finger is longer than the other, he's a man.

Seven! Ask him what his "name" is, and then ask what his year of birth (or age) is. Most transies have wrongly picked a name that's almost invariably two decades off. So anyone born in the 1960s may have a pseudo name that was "hot" in the 1980s, and soforth. Look for unusual spellings that make those names look "extra-feminine."

Eight! Start talking about (make up a story here) "your daughter's having her first OB-GYN physical exam" and relate that to your own experience. Observe his facial expression. He cannot relate to what you're saying or understand how painful and humiliating that ordeal would be.

Nine! If all else fails, there's the classic panty check.

Ten! Even this fails, there's a DNA testing. Or wait till he dies and you can look at his skeletons. Even surgeons cannot fool you with this.

Karen

A narrow definition of womanhood...
Posted by: April at Nov 03, 2005 18:13

As a transsexual woman I consider myself first and foremost a *woman*. I always have. And your alluding to our other motives for being in "feminine space" is ridiculous... For me being a woman is not some sick fetish... Being a woman is being who I am... On the bathroom issue, maybe someone can explain how violated a transsexual woman feels having to share a bathroom with men... This terrifies me as it would you... We need to pee just like you do... We are not trying to fool anybody, my dear, rather being the women we really are. The fooling ceases the day we pluck up the courage to stop hiding our true selves from the world and embrace our true nature. It saddens me that you define your womanhood in such narrow terms. Is all you are a set of reproductive organs? What if you had to have them removed? Are you no longer a woman? This is exactly the sort of bigotry and bias the feminist community has been fighting for years. And this "emotional sickness" as you term it is beginning to be backed by some research suggesting the origin is physical. I am as sane as you are. At this stage I am participating in a research product to help identify the genetic cause of such conditions. There are many fine resources on the internet that cover this topic... maybe while you are spitting venom on forums like this, you might consider doing some research.

Those feminists are screwed up
Posted by: Miss Meredith at Nov 04, 2005 06:09

Samantha, Kirsty and Karen, you feminist girls. I'm not surprised by your diatribes against trans-sexuals because you'd rather want to see she-males and freaks and effeminates "deconstructing" so-called "gender norms"! That's not a surprise at all. While you want to keep our restrooms a country club for "womyn-born-womyn" you still want men to be emasculated and want the trans-sexuals and trans-vestites to lead the way for an eventual feminist lesbian separatist world domination. To the likes of you, _Miss_ Samantha (I'm assuming you don't have a husband), both men and trans-sexuals are second class citizens.

True conservatives who care about traditional values do not oppose sex change operations. Why? Consider these...

1. Trans-sexuals lose their reproductive capacities, hence preventing their degenerated behaviours from being passed down. Should trans-sexual surgery become illegal, such deviates will have children and it will be passed down to the next generations.
2. Trans-sexuals lose their libido, thus helping them remain celibate for the remainder of their lives.
3. It is rather preferable to have them remain within the strict separations between men and women, than allowing them to flaunt their sexual ambiguity like trans-vestites and she-males.
4. By failing the test of manhood imposed upon them by their fathers and the society, they deserve this kind of draconian punishment (sex-change and be forced to live under social and economic disadvantage for the rest of their lives).

Now Miss Samantha probably enjoys making love to those "she-males". So she wants them to be men forever. Maybe she is a "closet heterosexual" who cannot stand the prospect of falling in love with the "patriarchal oppressors" (read em-ee-en) so goes to bed with lovely-looking trans-sexuals. But she doesn't want to become a lesbian, right?

xoxo,

Miss Rebecca Meredith
Director of Propaganda,
Conservative United Nationalists for Trans-Sexuals (C.U.N.T.S).

*sigh*
Posted by: Tiffany at Nov 04, 2005 11:30

This sounds like the kind of BS my dad would spew. He hates almost everyone and everything.

Why do people have to hate others? What's wrong with just accepting them? Don't they accept you for who you are?

(Oh, and I'm a transsexual)

geeze
Posted by: mendoksei at Nov 04, 2005 12:13

im sorry that anyone has to go through such discrimination just to pee.

I have to agree that this is probably satire.
Posted by: Jennifer at Nov 04, 2005 12:30

I have to agree with the person who thought this might be satire. It certainly sounds that way to me.

But, on the off chance that it is really the views of some misguided soul name Samantha, I would like to point a flaw in her logic.

She says, "No matter how effectively a man may think he is fooling women, it is just plainly very simple: 'women know women ... and can spot a fraud immediately.' " Then later she goes on to say, "When a tranny-man enters a women's restroom he is lying to those of us in there. We perceive him as being female." Hmmm, she seems to have a problem here. Either we are all clearly men, and can fool no one, or we are slipping in, unnoticed, and doing what any woman does, simply using the bathroom.

Either way, she needs to work on her logic.

I've got to reply to Karen's silliness
Posted by: Jennifer at Nov 04, 2005 13:56

I hate to break it to Karen, but "her" test is more than a bit flawed.

"One! This can't be any simpler. Go up to him and ask straight forward, "Are YOU a MAN or a WOMAN?" If he looks nervous or confused and cannot snap an answer within a second, he's a man."

I would quickly, and rather offendedly say "What?!?!? Of course I am a woman!" Just like any other woman would.

"Two! Ask questions only women know, something about sexual health or menstruation. He does not know an answer."

Ask away...

"Three! For someone who may be too shy to do 1 or 2 -- ask him if he can spare an extra tampon or a pad. He won't have one if he's fake! "

Sorry, but I'm a bit too old to still be having periods. Real women know about menopause.

"Four! Observe his body shape. Usually in a real female the sizes of her breasts and her hip are proportional in the traditional feminine aesthetic. If you see someone with a small hip and big breasts, you can be 80% sure he's a she-male."

80% is pretty lame, and "she-male" is highly offensive. Do you call African Americans the "N-word?"

?Five! Do a throat check. It really doesn't matter if he has a big adams apple or not. The point here is the angle in which the bone protrudes out of his throat. Measure it in degrees if necessary; if less than 150 degrees he's male (an average male's 90 degrees or less)."

Sorry, that one wouldn't work either.

"Six! Hand test. Measure the length of his ring finger and index finger. If his index finger is longer than the other, he's a man. "

Somebody better think this one through. I am assuming that poor Karen is looking at her own hand while writing this. It is the index finger that is longer in women, and guess what, mine is longer. If Karen has a longer ring finger, then she might still be a woman, but she probably be a rather masculine one.

"Seven! Ask him what his "name" is, and then ask what his year of birth (or age) is. Most transies have wrongly picked a name that's almost invariably two decades off. So anyone born in the 1960s may have a pseudo name that was "hot" in the 1980s, and soforth. Look for unusual spellings that make those names look 'extra-feminine.'"

Well, for many, that might be true. My name is Jennifer, which was a rather common name in 1954.

"Eight! Start talking about (make up a story here) "your daughter's having her first OB-GYN physical exam" and relate that to your own experience. Observe his facial expression. He cannot relate to what you're saying or understand how painful and humiliating that ordeal would be."

Again, I can certainly relate to that. Not from experience (yet), but from having talked to other women. Give me about a year, and get back to me.

"Nine! If all else fails, there's the classic panty check."

Honey, I've got a can of pepper spray. You really don't want to go there.

"Ten! Even this fails, there's a DNA testing. Or wait till he dies and you can look at his skeletons. Even surgeons cannot fool you with this."

Well, I have never had my DNA tested, so I have no idea what it would show. I would be willing to bet you have never had yours tested either. So, for all we know, there might be some surprises lurking there along with your rather odd finger lengths. And if you want to wait around, I could care less.

i think this is a joke.
Posted by: elizabeth at Nov 04, 2005 16:29

i think this is a joke.

if it's a joke...
Posted by: *doink* at Nov 04, 2005 17:35

While I think there are a few sarcastic posts here, the scary truth is that I honestly don't think the first poster is joking. You can see similar screeds at the michigan womyn's music festival messageboard (www.michfest.com) and on a few other "feminist" organization's websites like vancouver rape relief.

it's a sad fact. transphobia (as well as classism, sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.) is alive and doing *just* fine in activist circles. The only difference here is that the other *isms are clearly labeled against indymedia policy while transphobia isn't.

Perhaps it's time for the editorial policy to reflect this?

Big difference
Posted by: Maggie at Nov 04, 2005 20:40

So-called "transphobia" differs a big time from what you're saying, such as racism, sexism and homophobia. Here we are dealing with women's rights to have a safe space independent from and separate from their oppressors. Here we are dealing with men, the privileged class, appropriating the identity, culture and struggle of women, the oppressed class. In this patriarchal, misogynist world where men exercise their power and privilege everywhere, we the women must be entitled to a bit of freedom and safety from them.

This is no different than African Americans and other people of color having their own space to be empowered. That's not a racism to encourage black-only schools or chicano-only functions, while white-only is clearly racist.

This is why Vancouver Rape Relief and most other women's social service agencies do not allow men even if they had been neutered by white, male, capitalist surgeons whose only agenda is to reinforce sexism through their multi-billion-dollar sex-change business.

Frankly, this "trans-inclusion" rhetoric does a lot of disservice to those confused men who are basically forced to live like that and ingest unhealthy amount of hormones only because this male-dominated macho macho society doesn't allow them to be who they are.

Maggie

Inherent sexism in sex change
Posted by: Maggie again at Nov 04, 2005 21:05

When did we decide that lack of penis makes someone a woman? Isn't it the greatest epitome of patriarchal, phallocentric evil hypocrisy when people are divided into two -- dominant male class and subordinate "female" class -- and those who don't have their phallus somehow by default are lumped together with women?

If that's not sexism I don't know what is.

The word "woman" comes from the Middle English meaning "wombed one" or "womb moon", womb-one, wo-mon, get it? Now if these transfeminists (a patent oxymoron of the term) really really respect us, then show us by not calling themselves women or lesbians.

Our venerable coven still does everything skyclad, unlike those heretical "pagan" sects these days who stopped worshipping Goddess the correct way because of this "trans-inclusivity" hogwash.

Maggie, lesbian, feminist, pagan, womon. proud.


ps. Michigan forever!

Laughing at all the womyn
Posted by: Ilsa at Nov 04, 2005 21:53

I can't say that I'm at all surprised by the rediculous self-serving rhetoric that these "womyn" spew.

What do you expect from women who are so afraid of the world that they have to use terms like "womyn" to make themselves feel important.

You accuse transsexuals of being nothing more than men with breasts. Well, I recommend you take a look in the mirror.

You "womyn" are the "men with breasts" because, like George Bush has done with Christianity, you have forsaken the best elements of what you profess to embrace in order to satisfy your own twisted goals.

Oh, and as an aside, are you aware that there are people who have XY chromosomes but grow up female because their bodies reject the testosterone? I can't imagine how much THAT freaks you out. MEN who were BORN as WOMYN. MEN who grew up as GIRLS. WOMYN who have been stripped of their RIGHT to get pregnant by their foul MALE heritage!

I can understand the frustration of being in a patriarchal society, but attacking others who are ALSO raising their middle finger to that *exact same society* is just plain stupid. No wonder the feminist movement has all but collapsed. Instead of extending olive branches, you shoot to kill.

Men have pee-ness, woman have a yoo-tur-us
Posted by: Ilsa at Nov 04, 2005 22:04

Well, since so many of the feminists are claiming that you arn't a women if you don't have a womb, I'll start calling females who had to have hysterectomies by the male pronoun.

And when they get upset, I'll simply tell them that based on feminist theories, they arn't women anymore.

You're all so concerned about the evilness of the gender divide. Yet instead of trying to tear it down, you make every effort to build it higher and higher.

And now we have people hiding behind their religion as if it was some kind of proof to back up their personal biases. It doesn't matter if it's christian, wiccan, or whathave you. If you believe that your way is the only way, then you've missed the point of your religion and are just wasting your time.

I have a button that says "Anyone who things God is on their side is dangerous as hell". And that's just as true if you replace God with Godess.

Sources for definitive answers
Posted by: Maggie the magpie at Nov 04, 2005 23:01

Because it'll take a lot of space, I shall refer interested readers to these books for definitive and authoritative answers to your questions. They are all written by scholars and have extensive works cited lists and bibliography pages.

Bailey, J. Michael. The man who would be queen : the science of gender-bending and transsexualism. (Washington, DC: National Academies Press, 2003.) Read this free online:  http://books.nap.edu/openbook/0309084180/html/index.html

Leach, Jerry E. Flight toward woman. (Lexington, KY: Reality Resources Publications, 2004.)

Raymond, Janice G. The transexual empire : the making of the she-male. (New York: Teachers College Press, 1994.) ISBN 0807762725.

Zucker, Kenneth J. and Susan Bradley. Gender identity disorder and psychosexual problems in children and adolescents. (New York: Guilford Press, 1995.) ISBN 0898622662.

shameless....
Posted by: Bailey's Bane at Nov 05, 2005 01:34

Quoting J. Michael Bailey to assert your position... interesting... this is from his wiki entry at  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Michael_Bailey

"Based on Bailey's interpretation of evolutionary psychology, homosexuality is an evolutionary mistake or paradox, and may represent "a developmental error." He has linked homosexuality to higher levels of psychopathology and has stated that aborting a fetus after fetal screening for sexual orientation is "morally acceptable.""

Wow, what a *charming* and wonderful guy to be citing! Maybe you can cite some other eugenicists?

As for his "book" and "research"... there is a reason he is the *ex*-chair of Psychology at Northwestern University. First, because his "book" has been soundly discredited by just about every researcher in the field and second because of *very* inappropriate sexual contact with his research subjects which got him demoted. I doubt that this is what you'd like to profess as your "evidence". A defrocked homophobic eugenicst with a history as a perpetrator! GREAT CHOICE THERE MAGGIE!

Also, Janice Raymond's book is 25 year old reactionary junk which, quite frankly, is *full* of flat out fallacies. Anyone who actually knows a transsexual person would realize that.

And, as a pagan, I find offense that you would invoke the Goddess in your hateful "crusade". Have you no shame?

uh
Posted by: curious at Nov 05, 2005 02:26

so i'm curious about what your stance is on intersexed individuals using women's bathroom?

A TS person sympathises
Posted by: Abigail at Nov 05, 2005 08:25

I think this post was satirical. The person did not mean the opinions expressed. I accept that some people could think that I am not wholly female, just as I argue I am not a man- but there are only two options for restrooms. I ain't goan use the men's. I won't use the disabled one, come to that, as I am not disabled. No-one has ever objected to me in the women's.

However I do have sympathy for excluding transwomen from "Womanspace". I went to see a male gynaecologist. In the waiting room, I saw women accompanied by their menfolk. Often, the men spoke for the women to the receptionist, rather than allowing the woman to say what she needs to say. I have often seen people speak for others, even saying what the other _really_ feels. I loathe this oppression.

If I go to a women's group and someone says to me, I do not want you here, this is woman's space and you are not a woman, I will know she is wrong, I am a woman- so try not to be too hurt by the rejection. I will also walk away. Women need women's support groups, and do not need TS women there. As a transwoman I have transwomen's support groups. But a lavatory, or even a swimming pool changing room, is not a support group and I use the women's in preference to the men's, as is obviously the least problematic solution.

Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
Posted by: Cherry Sprinter at Nov 06, 2005 00:53

Ha! "Transwoman's" support group? LOL. Ain't that one of those dragged bunch of middle age men with pathological narcissism talking obsessively about having boobs and cunts and bragging about how they survived the electrolysis torture chambers and stuff?

Tell you the truth: "Transwomen's" support group is essentially a freemasons wearing ugly dresses.

Cherry Sprinter, Esq
Mayoral candidate, attorney at law, television show host
Vote Sprinter for Ohio Governor (Republican)!

* Paid for by Citizens for Sexual Reality, authorized by Cherry Sprinter for Governor Inc.

Hello Cherry Sprinter.
Posted by: Abigail at Nov 06, 2005 07:49

Dear Cherry, I used to care desperately what other people think. Now I realise that there is a very small category of people known as "ignorant fuckwits", and I do not care what they think at all. You may get a lot of fun, urinating on people, but only if they are willing to play your games.

Love and kisses,
Abigail.

Go Get Laid
Posted by: Shane Mikhail at Nov 06, 2005 20:58

My name is Shane. I was born with the XX that makes me, apparently, not evil. I even performed in the Vagina Monologues. But for some reason or another, I chose to lead the oh-so-priviledged life of a transgendered boy, which almost got me kicked out of said show, except that I lied. Wanna hear some of the perks that I get?

-Constant fear for my life
-Hatred from basically everyone, incluing people who used to be my friends.
-Bladder infections from holding it all day long
-Unsatisfying sex
-And much, much more! Plus, on special occasions, I get to deal with IDIOTS like YOU.

Oh, if we lived in a GOOD society, it would be perfectly safe for MTFs to use the men's restroom, but let me guess. Not for FTMs to use the women's restroom. Because we're blahblahblah supporters of the male chauvinist regime blahblah oppression blahblah I'm pulling this out of my ass blahblahblah. How about lesbians? Is it okay for lesbians to use the women's restroom? What about, say...I dunno. Foreigners? Black women? Jews? How about you change the sign on the bathroom to 'female-born and female-identified American-born caucasian feminists who have accepted Christ and think that God is a woman'.

You know what the reality is? MTFs and FTMs get RAPED AND MURDERED in men's restrooms. Doesn't that sound like fun? It's people like you and everyone who agrees with you that are the reason the right-wing white male Christians keep screwing us over. Because they have idiots like you to support them because you think that there's a big conspiracy about public bathrooms.

You know what? The conspiracy isn't about you. It's about me in the hospital because my kidneys are failing because every day on campus I can't figure out which bathroom to use. It's like a puzzle that I can't solve, so I hold it and then I get sick from it. It's about being terrified that if I go into the men's restroom, someone will see me and I might get killed.

In conclusion, I think you need to take the steel pole out of your rectum and go get laid by one of the lesbians in your women's restroom.

Whatever
Posted by: Kalette at Nov 06, 2005 21:08

Here's a tidbit for Samantha and her supporters from a very enlightening leadership conference I attended a few months ago.

"You have every right to be pro-you, but that doesn't mean to have to be anti-everybody else."

You can support all the feminist ideals that you want to, but you don't have to hate other people to do it. Just like it hurts you when men spout hatred towards women, it hurts M2Fs when you spout hatred about them in return. Being a minority is something a lot of people share, but so many people let it divide them even further.

We are regressing further and further as a species, and I think that it's a very, very sad time when anyone can step up to a public forum and spout hatred.

I am sorry that you, Samantha, Maggie, and the rest of you, have been fed this hatred for so long that your opinions are no longer your own.

Kalette (XX, XY, XXY...does it matter?)

Traitors' obeisance to the Patriarchy
Posted by: War on Patriachy at Nov 07, 2005 13:36

Miss "Shane" has betrayed the feminist cause and chose to abandon her birthright as a female to cow-tow to the Patriarchal Oppressors.

So-called FTMs contribute to the ego of the phallocentric Patriarchal ruling class by providing an evidence that (1) there are "defectors" who loath femininity; and (2) the phallus is an envied commodity.

Just as so-called MTFs contribute to the ego of the phallocentric Patriarchal class by helping exploit and colonise the femininity, FTMs do it in a different way.

Feminists need not fight for transies, their struggles are their own and their own alone. For long time transies had exploited our struggles and piggy-backed on our struggles for a free ride; it's high time that we abandon them. After all most "MTFs" are gay men, having nothing to do with us; most "FTMs" are lesbians with internalized homophobia wanting to go "straight." They betrayed us, not us betraying them.

Maggie

So you think you can tell...
Posted by: IC at Nov 07, 2005 16:54

Were any of these three people born men?
 http://www.glamazon.net/photo/jane-n-me.jpg

Take a look at the picture and take a guess. According to some of the posters above, they can tell.

more crap for the losers of the culture war
Posted by: *doink* at Nov 08, 2005 09:52

"For long time transies had exploited our struggles and piggy-backed on our struggles for a free ride; it's high time that we abandon them."

Since it was "transies" who were the ones actually *at* stonewall and not a bunch of academic twinks who can spout a bunch of outdated pseudo-intellectual bullshit to justify their own bigotry, well, I guess that means *YOU* can stop piggy-backing on our struggle.

Notice how the transphobic folks never actually argue the point. If their arguments aren't ad hominums they're just regurgitations of arguments that are unproven and even unprovable. Like the claim to understand the motivation behind transwomen going to the bathroom. Evidence? None. Citations to back up argument. Zilch. Making an ad hominum attack against an already marginalized community to make yourself feel special. Priceless.

I guess there *are* some things money can't buy.

I'm not fooled
Posted by: Maggie at Nov 08, 2005 13:07

The one on the left. This was very easy. Just look at his facial structure and compare with the genuine females' to the right. The differences are stunning.

But again I do have a sophisticated gaydar from working for homeless shelters for many years, where my unofficial job description was to detect transvestites and transexuals, take them to a room where I tell them to undress completely and exchange clothings, and kindly and firmly direct them to the proper shelters for men. My gaydar has so far never failed.

About Stonewall: "Sylvia" Rivera never called himself a transexual or transgender. He was a proud gay man who was a drag queen by profession, and had no illusion about his manhood.

wrong again genius!
Posted by: *doink* at Nov 08, 2005 14:00

First, and not that it matters (cause it was a stupid exercise in lookism anyhow), two of the women in that photo are trans.

"Just look at his facial structure and compare with the genuine females' to the right."

One of whom is trans. Here's a hint Ms. "sophisticated gaydar". It's not Jane Fonda, genius.

Second, Your statements about Sylvia are factually incorrect. Like, so blatantly factually incorrect (like, anyone with google can do a quick search on Sylvia Rivera and her letter to notorious transphobe Jim Fouratt in which she *repeatedly* refers to herself as transgender) is beyond silly.

Like, are you *really* this dumb or just a troll?

Be calm
Posted by: anon at Nov 10, 2005 08:55

Assuming this is actually a real hate-filled screed as opposed to a pretend hate-filled screed, it's still not much to get worked up over. Transphobia in the lesbian community (and make no mistake, this is a lesbian issue, not a women's issue) is mostly a generational thing. Like opposition to same-sex marriage, it'll just gradually die off because it's simply not relevant to the younger generations.

I can't hold it any more...
Posted by: Roxxxadelic at Nov 10, 2005 12:44

Now y'all have got my afraid of using the the restroom as it's full of creepy guys with boobs, creepy womyn obsessing about what I pee with, and stalls that require a chromosomal urine test before I'm allowed to urinate.

Maybe I should just take a roll of TP and wander out into the woods to squat.

Ecce Homo? Yo, No Homo?
Posted by: Jimmy and Janie at Nov 10, 2005 19:07

All around us we see these attacks on gaymen who do not conform to some kind of Tom of Finland or Andrew Sullivan image, What is new is we now see gay academics and pop journalists embracing this new push to make gaymen and lesbians straight by leading them to endure painful physical body manipulation and dangerous hormonal injects to take on the topography of the conventional definition of what is male and what is female. Modern medicine is once again trying to cure us of our desire for same sex love.

Our gender variant gay and lesbian population is under intense pressure to deny their homosexuality and to take all physical, hormonal and emotional steps in order to be accepted into heterosexual society.

First we had Boys Don't Cry which told the horrific story of a 19 year old baby butch lesbian who was first raped and than murdered because she had the audacity to role play and act on her desire to love and have sex with women. In death Brandon Teen became the poster girl of the reparative therapy movement (aka transgendered) for adult gender variant gaymen and women and in this guise was deemed acceptable frirst to Hollywood and than to a larger straight audience.

We are familuar with the smarmy tabloid journalism of gaywriter David France. Who could forget his bizarre book on Andrew Crispo? But does the New York Times need to sink to the level of the National Inquirer doing a Talk-ish sex/celebrity/death feature? I would hope not.

The Barry Winchell story needs to be told. How homophobia both external and more importantly internally puts at risk most homosexuals and lesbains and all gender variant individuals, How the rush to gender reassign through the wonders of modern medicine has ultimately failed ... where in the sensational picture of a professional skin strutter was there any reference to the 30 year John Hopkins study of sexual reassignment and how ultimately it did not improve the self image or well being of the subjects in their program. The results of this study caused John Hopkins to cease sexual reassignment as a solution to gender dysfunction. Or where is the information on how most transsexuals who are not closeted have very few job options other than in the adult entertainment and/or sex industry...Wendy Carlos and Dr. Renee Richard's are the exceptions.

The Imperial Court can be a powerful voice in confronting the solutions that are now being promoted by mainstream publications like the New Times and by the toxic, anti-gay/lesbian "queer" academics. Neither group is a friend of the Cherry Grove and/or Court community, Why can't Calpernia Sarah Addams dress, act and be himself as a gaymen, The Court sets a powerful role model of how to be who ever you want to be and to be true to your gay male identity. After all, this construction of 'women" is totally informed by gaymale sensibility and has little in reality to do with the essence of being female.

Speak up. Help those gender variant gaymen and women who are under siege to save their pennies to mutilate their bodies to gain acceptance into the heterosexual society.

Would be most interesting in hearing each of your response to this increasingly serious attack on who we are and how we live.

Jim Fouratt

Raymond, Janice. (1979). The Transsexual Empire. Boston: Beacon Press. -- Published by the Unitarian Universalist Association.

Raymond, Janice. Transsexualism: The Ultimate Homage to Sex-Role Power. Chrysalis, No. 3.

Strange bedfellows
Posted by: Karen S a transie from MI at Nov 10, 2005 20:33

My posted response.

For those who comment that we don't have to fear getting raped...

Wrong, it absolutely does happen. But the transwoman often dies if she's preop, should her rapist find this out.

Even without being raped, we get beaten up - we get beaten to death - just for being trans.

Just so that some goddamned man can unleash his hatred of "weakness" or women, whatever. Who cares, the end result is a dead or severely battered woman.

I really fear this happening to me. I can only curl up and take it. Or hope to evade it. Like I always have had to do.

Just thought I would mention it, men don't consider transsexual women to be men, either. Traitors, mainly, f****ts definitely, but not men. Transwomen get moved out of the hierarchy, and the patriarchy.

Real male privilege, indeed.

Who's supporting the patriarchy? Not me. I don't support anything or anyone who thinks it's okay to hate me. Or hate, period.

A few self styled feminists, precious few(!) presume to usurp the voice of many more far sympathetic women; with the patriarchy they make strange bedfellows, indeed.

Thanks: they can continue to justify what they do, and make my life very dangerous. I'm so very grateful.

wrong
Posted by: E at Nov 11, 2005 20:08

You never answered my question about intersexed individuals.

Also, assuming that FTM's are just becoming male due to their own homophobia is ridiculous. I know a TON of FTM's who are gay (sleep with men).

our culture's the sad state of hate
Posted by: monica barton at Nov 12, 2005 02:03

There is nothing satirical about the hate mongering Samantha epitomizes. That anyone, for any reason is the target of the kind of ignorant verbal violence masquerading as:

“Violation” “mental rape” “male agents of sexual oppression”

within Samantha’s writing is truly a fiasco. Samantha’s attitudes are a warning to everyone. Hate mongers like Samantha lynched African Americans a few decades ago, gassed the Jewish those same few decades ago, and have simply found new targets for their internalized self-hatred today.

People like Samantha are so unable to empathize with others, that they become xenophobic and attempt to ostracize and vilify others with defamatory propaganda intended to inflame the ridiculous fears they have and think exist in others. Samantha’s language equates the target of her hate with things she expects her audience hates just as much. For example, she attempts, without any support in reality or truth, to equate the target of her hate with pedophilia and sexual lust. Samantha succeeds only in demonstrating that she is something that everyone else should fear and distance from. She is the oppressor, not the oppressed. Today she wants to oppress based on sex and gender, as in the past people like her, and many still in the present, oppressed based on ethnicity, religion, etc. Tomorrow people liker her will find some other attribute to target as they mistake and then would like to call their hatred fear instead.

Let people like Samantha speak and write so that we can identify, label, and know well, the true threat to a safe society and culture, the hate mongers like her personify. Let her speak and write so that we can know and be familiar with her brand of verbal violence well. Let her writing label her more plainly than the attributes of others she purports to fear and cry aloud about so much. Let’s all point at her with arms extended as we name Samantha and her kind quite clearly for the truly fascist like and anti-social scourge they represent.









response to Jimmy and Janie "Ecce homo" above
Posted by: Abigail at Nov 12, 2005 09:28

But I am not a gay man.

Long ago, I tried to decide whether I was right to transition, and wondered whether I fitted the generic description of transsexual person. I did not. I do not fit any box, whether labelled "gay man" or "woman" or any other. I only fit the box marked "Abigail". I have not changed out of self-hatred, and I certainly would not recommend a gay man to have his penis removed so he could pretend to be a straight woman.

It is quite simple. For most people, gender reassignment surgery would be a complete disaster, and most people find the thought of it happening to them revolting. But for those of us for whom it is right, it is the best thing that can ever happen.

I did not have surgery in order to oppress women, or to oppress gay men, or to deny my "reality" of being a gay man, or for any other stupid or twisted reason. I did it because it was right for me.

Love,
Abigail.

Satire unmasks ignorance
Posted by: Christine B at Nov 14, 2005 21:33

I am the woman whose website (  http://www.glamazon.net ) hosts the above jane-n-me photo, so I feel obliged to make a few observations.

#1. While the link to my website was done without my consent, as a woman with a transsexual past I feel that several excellent points may be made about the photo and the history surrounding it. Thus, I retroactively cede permission to link to the photo.

#2. As has been pointed out, Maggie's "gaydar" is way off. One of the "genuine" females is Calpernia Addams, a transsexual woman whose boyfriend was murdered by bigots, a story dramatized in the movie "Soldier's Girl." That is Calpernia's Goddess-given face; she had no surgery on it at the time the photo was taken.

#3. One of the stars in that movie, Troy Garrity, is Jane Fonda's son, which is how Jane and Calepernia met. Through Jane, she met Eve Ensler and got Eve's blessing to produce the Vagina Monologues with an all-transgender cast (I was also a cast member). The above photo is from the VIP party after that performance.

#4. Eve Ensler met with and interviewed many transsexual women and wrote a brand new monologue just for us, which was debuted at this performance (V-Day, 2004). Of transsexual women, Ms. Fonda says "I am so moved by the women who have forfeited Penis Privilege for Vagina Power. It's certainly the road less traveled but it's the road of courage and you are not alone." Eve Ensler is even more effusive, saying "I stand in solidarity and strength and tenderness with women who have fought for the girl in them not to be beaten or silenced or ignored. I am awed by the courage and vision of transwomen who held to their authentic nature in the face of everything including shame and violence. May this V-Day be a day of liberation, celebration, and kindness."

#5. Ms. Fonda and Ms. Ensler are true feminists. The angry, embittered women who jumped all over the obvious satire of the initial post to vehemently agree with it have mistaken self-pity and resentment for activism. While it is good that anger inspires action, it is merely destructive when anger *directs* activism. The demagoguery of these women is on par with Rush Limbaugh. They should pop a few Vicodin, hop in bed with him and spread their legs. At least he has the sense to get *paid* for perpetuating willful ignorance and hatred.

#6. The rallying cry of feminism used to be "biology is not destiny" and yet all of the shrill, transphobic harpies seem to forget that tenet when they denounce transwomen. Furthermore, there is a growing body of evidence that transsexualism may be contributed to, if not caused by abnormalities in the limbic system of the brain. See  http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm for more info on this. If one's gender is merely a matter of genitals, does that make a woman with a hysterectomy less of a woman? How about a woman born without a uterus (estimated between 1 in a 4,000 and 10,000 women)?

#7. The woman who used male pronouns to identify me in the photo is entitled to her opinions about my gender. However, all of my women friends, including in my support groups, accept me as a sister. Furthermore, the State of California also recognizes me as legally female; my birth certifcate was amended after my sex reasignment surgery. I am free to marry a man in CA, if that were my orientation. However, I can can still go to Kansas, Texas or Florida and legally marry my girlfriend. All I have to do is lie and write in my name under "Husband."

#8. The kind of bigotry I've seen shamelessly paraded on this board is the same hatred that drove me -- an honors student in Computer Science -- underground at 27 years of age into a life of prostitution and addiction that nearly killed me. That same dynamic still exists today. Tell me again about the "free ride" that transwomen have been getting.

Christine Beatty

P.S. Jim Fouratt's hysterical, transphobic claims that transsexualism is an attemt to erradicate homosexuality do not explain the 50% of transsexual women who are attracted to other women. In that sense, transsexual surgery is creating more lesbians and, effectively, increasing the size of the gay community.

The rest of you
Posted by: Dr. Leeppa Skes at Nov 14, 2005 23:40

The remaining half is explained as a curious psychiatric condition called autogynophilia (this long word is pronounced auto-GUY-know-phil-ee-yah).

Attracted for women for all the wrong reasons when the true subject of their homosexual attraction is their own self as they are transmorphed into feminization.

They pitifully use women to justify sickness.

Sadly they call themselves lesbians when they have no clue what it's like to be lesbians. Their idea of what it is like to be women is informed purely by the previously-heterosexual male sensitivity.

Dr. Leeppa Skes

Doctor smocter....
Posted by: Oh please. at Nov 15, 2005 01:04

Autogynophilia has never, ever, ever been proven and in fact has been refuted multiple times. Ray Blanchard's theory is plain bad science. The man uses a plethysmograph to "prove" his theory. How about some phrenology to add to his quakery? Maybe we can toss in a good bleeding as well?

No one has ever been able to replicate Dr. Blanchard's theory. His work has constantly been discredited by HBIGDA, sexologists, biologists and most damning, the very population he's studying. Furthermore, I might suggest that a person claiming to be a physician (which is what I assume you are claiming to be by the use of Dr. even though I can't find you in the AMA directory) would be well advised to be cautious in citing non-proven and even disproven work as "evidence" for their political grist mill. It's not only bad science, but bad medicine, especially when a simple library search will turn up no less than 50 various peer reviewed papers that provide evidence to suggest that Blanchard's psycho-social model is in grevious error.

If you actually are a physician, please, get yourself back into med school as you missed the past 20 years of research in this field.

MTF TRANS IS A MALE MOVEMENT
Posted by: profeminist male. at Mar 01, 2006 00:31

I Am a male that has identified as feminist or profeminist for most of my life.
The trans movement (MTF) is a MALE movement. it is interesting to see the agressive paterns of the trans advocates, directly comming from their male privilege. The trans movement is dangerous to women.

You are so right on.
Posted by: New York Feminist at Mar 01, 2006 00:33

I could not have said it half as well as you did,right on.

funny
Posted by: aleisha at Mar 18, 2006 04:11

i was staring at the 'dr. leeppa skes' thingy for half a minute and it dawned on me: read that backwards.

seks appeel, sex appeal!

funny some people are.